Byrd Afraid and Ashamed

Transcript for July 18 Guests: Sen. Robert Byrd, D-W.Va.

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MEET THE PRESS Sunday, July 18, 2004

MR. RUSSERT: But, first, Robert C. Byrd has been a senator for 45 years, serving with 11 presidents and now says our current president is "...a dangerous leader in a dangerous time."

Senator Byrd, welcome.

SEN. ROBERT BYRD, (D-WV): Thank you.

MR. RUSSERT: Why would you say our commander in chief is a dangerous leader?

SEN. BYRD: He doesn't like to answer questions. He doesn't like to build a consensus. He doesn't like consultation. He is a man who's governed by his instincts, he says. That's fine. I don't believe, however, that we should have a national leader who is governed by his instincts.

MR. RUSSERT: In the midst of the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, what message do you think it sends to the world when someone like you says that President Bush is dangerous, reckless and arrogant?

SEN. BYRD: I hope that the world will listen. This book constitutes a wake-up call, a wake-up call not only to our own people but to the world.

MR. RUSSERT: Let me show you what you also say in the book. Back in October of 2002, only 23 senators opposed a resolution authorizing the president to go to war. "In the end, only 22 other members voted to oppose this despicable grant of authority. ...Never in my half century of congressional service had the United States Senate proved unworthy of its great name. What would the framers have thought? In this terrible show of weakness, the Senate left an indelible stain upon its own escutcheon. Having revered the Senate during my service for more than forty years, I was never pained so much."

You say that the 22 senators who joined with you were profiles in courage, and those who didn't vote that way had shown weakness. John Kerry, candidate for president, John Edwards, candidate for vice president, your Democratic Party, voted for the war. Are they weak?

SEN. BYRD: They were misled. I'm confident of that. And I have a feeling that that is why they voted as they did.

MR. RUSSERT: Misled by whom?

SEN. BYRD: Misled by this administration, misled by this president, misled by Mr. Rumsfeld, misled by the CIA. Mostly, though, however...

MR. RUSSERT: Intentional?

SEN. BYRD: I can't say it was the intention, but it was what caused many senators, I'm sure, to vote as they did. And we have to remember that this was in an atmosphere where to vote against it and to speak out against this administration took courage. And many senators were fearful that they would be called unpatriotic if they did not vote with the administration.

MR. RUSSERT: You seem to suggest that John Kerry and John Edwards lacked courage.

SEN. BYRD: No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying they lacked the facts. I didn't have the facts any more than anybody else, but I had studied this administration; I had listened to what Karl Rove had said in Austin, Texas, when he addressed the Republican National Committee in January of 2001 when he indicated that this war, this homeland security subject, all of this, was a horse on which they could ride right through the upcoming election. He indicated that the people trusted the Republicans more to defend this country, and it was his suggestion that the Republican strategy should be to use this in order to win the election. I read about that. And then, as a result of my reading that, every time I saw the president on camera with the backdrop of the military, of the National Guard, I remembered what Karl Rove said. And I think the administration was carrying it right through on his advice.

MR. RUSSERT: Let me show you another excerpt from your book: "We keep hearing the refrain, `Stay the course.' What is the course? Is it that we continue sending American troops to be used as sitting ducks in an Iraqi shooting gallery? How long are we going to be fed the pap that fighting the terrorists on the streets of Baghdad saves us from fighting terrorists on the streets of New York City or Washington, D.C.?"

What would you do, pull all the American troops out immediately?

SEN. BYRD: No. No, we made a mistake. It was wrong to enter this war. There were two wars going on: one in Afghanistan, which I fully supported. That was a war that was begun by the--those who destructed the world towers. That was an attack on America. I was 100 percent behind the president in his reaction to that war.

But then a second war has come along, in which another country did not attack us, there was not an imminent danger from Iraq. This was Mr. Bush's war. I was against it. It was a mistake, I said at the time. I say now that it is a mistake. I'd never say that we should pull our troops out. I think we should work, having entered into this, to bring about an honorable way to bring our troops home.

MR. RUSSERT: Would that, however, make Iraq a haven for terrorists if we were to abandon it?

SEN. BYRD: It is already a haven for terrorists. It was not before Mr. Bush attacked this country that had not provoked this country by an attack. We attacked Iraq. We've never done that. This was part of the Bush doctrine of pre-emptive attack. It was wrong. That's a dangerous doctrine. And I simply say that we have to do what we have to do, and we have to have a plan to bring our men home with honor, but it's very hard because the Bush administration insulted some of our friends and referred to old Europe, and they turned the back of their hands to the U.N. And so we have to go it alone, almost, because we're losing the support that we have over there with other countries.

MR. RUSSERT: Let me show you another excerpt from the book: "Bush's power has been wielded with arrogance, calculation, and disdain for dissenting views. The Constitution's careful separation of powers has been breached, and its checks and balances circumvented. Behind closed doors, schemes have been hatched, with information denied to the legislative branch and policy makers shielded from informing the people or Congress. In fact, there appears to be little respect for the role of Congress. There is virtually no attempt to build consensus through the hard work of reaching across the aisle to find common ground. Real consultation does not exist."

You've worked with 11 presidents. Is that any different than with the previous 10 presidents?

SEN. BYRD: It's very different. I have never seen such secrecy. I've not--I have never experienced such a feeling of disdain for the Congress by this administration. And this is what I've been talking about. We saw it--I see it in the Appropriations Committee, where the administration continues to try to seek more power, grasp more power. This administration does not like oversight by the Congress. And it is exceedingly dangerous. I've never seen anything like that in my experience. Nixon...

MR. RUSSERT: Nixon had secrecy.

SEN. BYRD: ...had secrecy. And some of his people are in this administration: the vice president, the secretary of defense, former secretary of the Treasury, Mr. O'Neill.

MR. RUSSERT: And this is worse?

SEN. BYRD: Far worse. I've never experienced anything like this. I've never felt as afraid of what-- where we're headed as I feel now.

MR. RUSSERT: Aren't the Democrats also responsible, however, for the gridlock and for the excessive partisanship?

SEN. BYRD: There's no question about it. It isn't the president and this administration alone. Our own Congress lost its backbone when it voted to shift the constitutional power to declare war to this president, to this one man. The framers must have been spinning in their graves because they intended for such a decision to be cast by--not just by one house of Congress but by both houses of Congress. And now we have--we shifted. Congress was weak, and I was ashamed of the Senate for the first time in my 45 years, that it would shift this power and remove itself and take away its voice. It turned over to this one man the decision to use our military forces as he would, when he would, where he would, and there's no sunset provision in that. There was at least a sunset provision in Tonkin Gulf resolution. There's no sunset provision in this power.

I said to myself and to my colleagues, "Look, if we're going to be silly enough and unsensible enough to shift this power to this president, let's at least put a sunset provision in it." I offered an amendment, got 31 votes, including my own. I could hardly believe it. I was ashamed. But not only has the Congress failed, the American people have been unthinking and they've not asked questions. And finally, the press, the media itself, bought into this once the president's drums of war started. I call it his drums and I don't mean his individually alone, but his administration. But in particular, this leader, when he loosed the dogs of war, the press fell in line and the press failed to ask the questions that it should have asked. So there are a lot of people at fault here.

MR. RUSSERT: Before you go, West Virginia, five electoral votes, went for George W. Bush in 2000 rather than Al Gore. You had advised Al Gore to temper some of his environmental comments so as to not lose West Virginia. On the John Kerry for President Web site, he refers to coal as a dirty energy source, which President Bush alluded to when he was in West Virginia recently. Can John Kerry carry West Virginia if he continues to call coal a dirty energy source?

SEN. BYRD: Look, I'm the son of a coal miner. I married a coal miner's daughter. I know a lot about coal. I know a lot about the Depression. Yes, coal is a dirty energy source. But look what we're trying to do. We're trying to clean it up. I've appropriated moneys over the years for coal research to make it cleaner. So, yes, he can carry West Virginia. He will carry West Virginia if he continues to stand up for the liberties of the people.

And we've got to remember that, it's the people back home who are to be remembered. And this Constitution, John Kerry believes in this Constitution. I've talked with him. I've told him he should go to West Virginia. He should shake hands with the people. He should be at their level and get a little coal dust on his hands, get some of that dirty dust on his hands and on his face and live in spirit with the working people of this country, the coal miners, and always remember that sovereignty rests, John Kerry, sovereignty rests with the people of this country. And it's this book here--why I wrote "Losing America" was to help save this book, the Constitution.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Robert C. Byrd, we thank you for sharing your views.

SEN. BYRD: Thank you.